DH Allies

[CharlieMalleus]

I've recently started with 40k and am looking for a bit of advice; I've decided to play Daemonhunters, but I'm also building up a little force of Black Templars as well since I've got a Librarian and a few Marines lying around. I was planning to just have the Templars on deck for if I got bored of the Grey Knights and wanted to try fighting with a radical force (daemonhosts and the suchlike). The first thing I need advice on is whether or not I can actually do this; I've only really flicked through the DH Codex because I'm still reading the WH40K rulebook, but as far as I can see I'm okay to use Templars alongside my radicals, just not Grey Knights. Am I right?

Also I've read a few articles regarding the use of Witch Hunters as DH allies, but in the Codex it only has rules for Imperial Guard (no) and Marines. Can you actually use Witch Hunters, because if so I might be tempted to go that way rather than try and build up my Templars any further.

My last question is sort of a big one and is also a bit stupid, but hey. I've so far got two squads of Marines, a Librarian and a squad of Grey Knights with a Justicar.... However I don't know what they're armed with! All I'm sure of are the Marines' bolters and the Librarian's bolter pistol; apart from that I have no idea what weapons my squads are carrying!! I made a bit of a list below of the weapons I'm not sure about, so if anyone can help me out I'd appreciate it....

Grey Knights - They mostly have big glaive weapons, I'm guessing they're the nemesis force weapon but I can't be certain, plus they have little double-barrelled guns mounted on the back of their left hands (storm bolters?). There's also one with a big double barrelled two-handed cannon, which I'd guess was a Psycannon.... They all came from the standard Grey Knights boxed set.

Justicar - He has the same little double barreled gun as his Knights, plus a sword.

Marines - Like I said, most have got bolters but two have got big missile launcher type weapons on their shoulders with little eyepieces.

Librarian - He's got a big axe, a normal looking one rather than a chain axe, as well as his bolter pistol.

Thanks for the help... and stop laughing!

[mEGALOMANIAC]

The first thing I need advice on is whether or not I can actually do this; I've only really flicked through the DH Codex because I'm still reading the WH40K rulebook, but as far as I can see I'm okay to use Templars alongside my radicals, just not Grey Knights. Am I right?

Yes and no. If your base army is Daemonhunters (with no GK), you cannot include Black Templar - only vanilla marines out of the codex. No traits or special chapters are allowed. You *can* use the Black Templar models to represent those vanilla marines, but you *cannot* use any special rules, including things like the initiate/neophyte thing that BT have. On the other hand, if Black Templar are your base army, you can include Daemonhunters allies (which can include GK if you want!). In this version, your Black Templar would be allowed to use all their special rules, since they're the base army.

Also I've read a few articles regarding the use of Witch Hunters as DH allies, but in the Codex it only has rules for Imperial Guard (no) and Marines. Can you actually use Witch Hunters, because if so I might be tempted to go that way rather than try and build up my Templars any further.

Yes, you CAN use Witch Hunter allies in a DH army (or DH allies in a WH army). The reason it isn't stated in the DH codex is simple: the WH codex didn't exist at the time! But the WH codex is clear on the issue. If your base army is DH, you can ally in certain WH elements according to the chart on page 25 of the Witch Hunters codex. If your base army is Witch Hunters, you can ally in certain Daemonhunters units (including GK if you like), in accordance to the rules on page 21 of the DH codex. In the grey box on that page, where it says "Sisters of Battle" are one of your choices to ally into, just substitute "Witch Hunters". There are no rules concerning the combination of GK or SoB in one army (unlike how there are rules concerning the combination of GK and SM in one army), so don't worry about that.

Grey Knights - They mostly have big glaive weapons, I'm guessing they're the nemesis force weapon but I can't be certain, plus they have little double-barrelled guns mounted on the back of their left hands (storm bolters?). There's also one with a big double barrelled two-handed cannon, which I'd guess was a Psycannon.... They all came from the standard Grey Knights boxed set.

Nemesis Force Weapons are those halbred/glaive things they carry. And the double-barrelled guns are stormbolters. Standard weaponry for GK. The double-barrelled cannon is actually an Incinerator (Psycannons don't come in the standard box, only in blister packs individually).

Justicar - He has the same little double barreled gun as his Knights, plus a sword.

Same loadout as the regular GK: Nemesis Force Weapon & stormbolter. Nemesis Force Weapons come in different flavors - like power weapons, they can be swords, axes, spears, etc. Remember that a Justicar's NFW has different properties than a NFW in the hands of a normal GK trooper (DH codex, page 18 explains all of that).

Marines - Like I said, most have got bolters but two have got big missile launcher type weapons on their shoulders with little eyepieces.

I would have to assume those are missile launchers ^_^

Librarian - He's got a big axe, a normal looking one rather than a chain axe, as well as his bolter pistol.

Most likely it's supposed to be a Force weapon. Librarians (and other psykers) can use Force weapons, which usually look like large ornate versions of their regular weapons. Like NFW or power weapons, they can come in a variety of forms, like swords, axes, etc.

Thanks for the help... and stop laughing!

Hey, I'm not laughing - they don't include images of most of the weapons anywhere, so it's hard to know sometimes!

[CharlieMalleus]

Thanks mate, that's a big help. I got a bit confused by the Codex timings thing because it actually says in the DH Codex you can ally with a WH army, so I was thinking they must've been around but you just weren't allowed to use them as reinforcements.

I've managed to read a bit more of the Codex too, and I noticed the bit about the SM having to be vanilla. Sort of makes the decision for me really; yes, they're vastly more expensive, but at the end of the day I'd rather have two squads of Grey Knights with all their special rules and psyker abilities than a few run-of-the-mill Space Marines (although I suppose it might be worth it to get rid of the Sustained Assault thing, if you're a wimp). One thing though; if the SM you're allowed to use have to be vanilla, does that mean using GK in a Templars force removes their special rules? Can they still Deep Strike and use psyker abilities? I can't see anything in the Codex that says they can't, but it seems a bit too good to be true to me. And does that also mean that the Witch Hunters lose their special rules if you use them as allies?

One other thing I was curious about is where you find the stats for the various weapons; I've searched the rulebook, the codex and the internet for stats for my weapons but no joy other than the few examples that are given in the rulebook weapon types section. I had me a little test game yesterday, my Space Marines against my Grey Knights, just to make sure I had a grip of the basic rules and I ended up having to make up the weapon stats, with some interesting results (for "interesting" see "stupid"; I gave the storm bolters a 36" inch range for a start).

Thanks again, much appreciated. I would ask in the GW near me, but the idea of having a 10 year old kid lecturing me on the proper deployment of troops and kicking my arse is a bit too much for my ego to handle.

[mEGALOMANIAC]

One thing though; if the SM you're allowed to use have to be vanilla, does that mean using GK in a Templars force removes their special rules? Can they still Deep Strike and use psyker abilities? I can't see anything in the Codex that says they can't, but it seems a bit too good to be true to me. And does that also mean that the Witch Hunters lose their special rules if you use them as allies?

Nonono, there's a difference. When you use vanilla IG or SM in a DH army, they aren't allies, they're INDUCTED. It's different from allied troops. The Inquisition has power, so when it demands use of the Imperium's more mundane troops, it gets it - but not the more unique varieties, basically. For example, you could have a base DH army, with INDUCTED Space Marines, and then ALLY Witch Hunters into it. So when WH or DH are used as allies, they keep there special rules - Allied units are basically a second, limited FOC. Inducted troops - which are ONLY Inducted IG or SM for either Inquisition army - do NOT keep their special rules.

One other thing I was curious about is where you find the stats for the various weapons; I've searched the rulebook, the codex and the internet for stats for my weapons but no joy other than the few examples that are given in the rulebook weapon types section. I had me a little test game yesterday, my Space Marines against my Grey Knights, just to make sure I had a grip of the basic rules and I ended up having to make up the weapon stats, with some interesting results (for "interesting" see "stupid"; I gave the storm bolters a 36" inch range for a start).

Sorry, can't help you much here. It's illegal to give that info out, since it's copyrighted AND against forum rules. The last page of the DH codex (literally, it's opposite the back cover) has a bunch of tables on it with weapon & unit stats. If your book is missing that, then go to wherever you bought it and exchange it for a new one.

[Dorhnkurk]

the last pages of the DH codex will have the weapons information for the DH. most (if not all) of the space marine's weapons will also be in there. if you are confused about special abilities in close combat (like power weapons and force weapons), look up the 40k rule book. there's a page listing all the various CC (close combat) weapons.

short translation of what Megalo said: if you start as black templars and include daemonhunters, you can maintain all special abilities and have both space marines and grey knights. if you start as daemonhunters and include the black templars, the black templar lose their special abilities (they just become ordinary space marines), and you can not field grey knights.

at this point in time, i'd suggest fielding as black templar with daemonhunter 'allies'. if memory serves though, you're required to have an hq character known as the 'emperor's champion' as an HQ. it shouldn't be hard to find.. but i think he's mandatory in a black templar army

[ze_poodle]

Also, an army with Daemonhosts cannot take SM as allies or induct them. Just a point.

[mEGALOMANIAC]

Also, an army with Daemonhosts cannot take SM as allies or induct them. Just a point.

That's untrue. An army with Daemonhosts cannot also include Grey Knights, sure, but there are no such restrictions concerning the combination of vanilla SM and Daemonhosts. You can induct SM into a DH army containing Daemonhosts, and you can ally DH (including Daemonhosts) into an SM army.

[CharlieMalleus]

I found the weapon stats thing, thanks. Lots of sweet psyker abilities they have as well.

at this point in time, i'd suggest fielding as black templar with daemonhunter 'allies'. if memory serves though, you're required to have an hq character known as the 'emperor's champion' as an HQ. it shouldn't be hard to find.. but i think he's mandatory in a black templar army

I can see what you're saying and it makes sense, since it allows you to use DH abilities AND Templar special rules. To be honest though, I'd rather play just DH and use the other choices as allies/ inductees. The thing is that I'm not really "into" the Space Marines or Imperial Guard as much as I am the Daemonhunters; they're flagrantly overpowerful, their backstory is ace and they just look cooler than almost any other force as far as I can see. I'm sure playing at a numbers disadvantage will be extremely tough, especially during my first few games (which I am already dreading), but I'm totally smitten by the Ordo Malleus so I'll just learn to live with it. Plus there's a good reason why all DH units cost a bomb in points terms; they have the potential to kick a great deal of bahookie.

One thing I would like to know however, which isn't really mentioned in the Codex as far as I can see, is whether your vanilla SM tactical squads/ infantry plattons, SoB squads etc. contain Sergeants (or whatever the Codex equivalent of a Justicar is), and if so can I use Librarians, Emperor's Champions etc. to represent them? It probably tells you in the Codex but I may have missed it, if so then if anyone can suggest a page number I'd be greatful.

[mEGALOMANIAC]

One thing I would like to know however, which isn't really mentioned in the Codex as far as I can see, is whether your vanilla SM tactical squads/ infantry plattons, SoB squads etc. contain Sergeants (or whatever the Codex equivalent of a Justicar is), and if so can I use Librarians, Emperor's Champions etc. to represent them? It probably tells you in the Codex but I may have missed it, if so then if anyone can suggest a page number I'd be greatful.

Well, you have to actually own the IG or SM codex to use them in a WH or DH army. The army list inside the DH codex, where it tells you which IG/SM units you can use, it also says to refer to the appropriate codex. Hence why you don't find stats for Guardsmen or Space Marines in the DH and WH codecies.

Most (if not all) Imperial armies have a basic leader in their squads. Justicars for GK, Sergeants for IG and SM, Sister Superiors for SoB, etc. That's part of the squad, and you can't not have it. What you do is use the basic unit from the appropriate codex, with legal upgrades. So if you're using inducted SM, a tactical squad could, for example, have a veteran sergeant upgrade, or a heavy bolter on one of the marines, since those are both legal upgrades for a vanilla marine tactical squad. The basic tactical squad, though, still contains the X number of marines and a single sergeant.

As for representing them with other models, I don't know. I mean, the Emperor's Champion model is unique, and 99% of 40K players know it on sight. And a Librarian doesn't at all look like anything other than, well, an HQ choice. Plus the fact that they're armed with non-standard weaponry for a sergeant. I'd suggest against it, at least with HQ models standing in for Troops.

[CharlieMalleus]

Okay, I've picked me up a Witch Hunters Codex and read through it, and as far as I can see I can pretty much use all of the units except for Heavy Support, which is fine since I was planning on using Purgation Squads anyway, them being easier (marginally) to paint to a half decent degree than the Adepta Sororitas or any vehicles. What I still haven't seen is anything in the actual rules saying I can use DH and WH and IG/SM in the same army; if anyone can direct me to a page then I'd be greatful, because the last thing I need is to paint my models and sort my army out and then turn up for a practise game and be snickered at by the various GW staff for trying to use Bikes and Celestians in the same DH army.